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 [FEEDBACK] PVP-BASIC 21 Nov 18:00Go to page >> |
| Author | Post |
| Azual |
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          [AGONY] Core Posts: 2062 | May as well post this up since it's not done already... Thanks for coming to the class, we'd love to hear feedback both from first-time students and alumni. Many thanks to Skrewed, Tea and Caldak for their roles, plus all the other Agony guys behind the scenes who make these classes happen. Remember that you can return to any BASIC class as alumni for free, and keep an eye out for a WOLFPACKS class being announced over the next month or two! And don't forget to vote TeaDaze for CSM (and/or world domination)! [ image disabled ] "this could all go horribly wrong" - Madorris | ||
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| Caldak |
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    [AGONY] Core Posts: 1017 | Right, nice group that went out. Didn't go bad for a noob gang and Vent problems. 1 - Bait Drake, thanks to those that donated for it. 2 - Some good engagements looking back. Things to remeber. Having a good plan means Zip if they don't fall in it, come into the system you setup in, run away. Some engagements will get messy, nature of the beast. Having people step up and help makes everyone's job easier and keeps things focused. ( Ecatherina W this ones is for you) FC isn't the start and end of a gang. Just there to give focus, you guys did well. My Thoghts. Can't kill stuff if they run away. Can't trap and use tatics if they don't come our way and go a different route. Can't have things go as smooth as we want. Can make the best of everything happening. Can think outside the box and do something different. Hope you all enjoyed it, Vent lag and all. Life's to short for Crap BASIC - 0208081800 WOLFPACKS-1110081600 BOMBERS-072620081600 Fleet Command - 1512080200 A&W-0271220081700 | ||
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| Zin Leya |
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 Posts: 21 | Never had this issue before, but it might be good to point out that if people aren't absolutely sure of what the FC ordered, don't type what you think he said in chat. I know myself and a few others mistook this for missing something when we headed for 3mog. Drake bait was fun, shame it actually didn't tank much.  Alumni: BASIC - 1906092100 Alumni: WOLFPACK - 200910242300 Alumni: ADVANCED-2603102400 Alumni: ADVANCED HSSR -0805102300 Participated in Basic FC Seminar: FC BASIC-20091114 | ||
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| pcadeson |
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Posts: 2 | First, a huge thanks to SkrewedUp, teadaze, Caldak, Azual...for the number of kids in class I thought it went smoothly, and the AU guys so professional throughout. The info on spiraling, ewar, and scanning were great, biggest help to me is the clear explanation of how optimal and falloff work for turrets. The fleet manager was nice to see - kudos to the guy/gal that put it together. The roam was fun - my first big fleet and it was quite different from the carebearing I have done in the past. Actually a little nerve wracking as I was afraid to get Caldak mad  And we go to run with a "celeb", fanboi shoutout to Wensley!Thanks again! Look forward to running with another roam as an "alum" and further classes. pol pcadeson - Pol Cadeson (BTCL) ALUMNI [ link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?161954]BASIC-20091121[/link] | ||
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| darkodin |
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Posts: 5 | thanks it was an awesome and very instructional experince, never had my heart pumping so fast before in eve XD BASIC-20091121 | ||
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| Animatus |
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 Posts: 22 | Class was great, the roam was everything it was hyped up to be - well done all the Agony pilots who made this possible. Caldak for putting up with us, Teadaze and Skrewdup for giving a great lecture. Thanks for the guest appearence and lecture from Azual. WOLFPACKS-20091201 BASIC-20091104 FC BASIC-20091114 | ||
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| Mohawk |
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 Posts: 44 | That was the absolute most fun I've had in this game since our last wardeck! Thanks Guys, You can count on me coming back. BTW, the whole directional scan part, very educational, I had no idea. o/ BASIC-20091121 FC BASIC-20091114 WOLFPACKS-20091215 ADVANCED-2603102400 ADVANCED HSSR -0805102300 The FC's Eyes in PVP - 20101605 | ||
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| dzu |
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 Posts: 35 | Second time 'round for me. It was *really* worthwhile to sit through the class again . . . in part because it was an additional perspective from different instructors. Many thanks to Skrewed, TeaDaze, Azual for a great class. I especially benefited from the discussion about Optimal Range + Falloff constraints for guns vs. Angular Velocity/Tracking Speed constraints, and how missiles differ on this. And great recap and practice for spiralling. I there was lots of stuff that I heard the first time but needed to hear again to get it to sink in better. The roam was lots more fun the second time too . . . mostly because I felt more certain of where we were in space (I had Dotlan up on a hand-held computer), I was not struggling as much with figuring out how to fit into the fleet, and I had a better sense of what the Agony pilots were trying to do. A big thank you Caldak and the team . . . Caldak has a wonderful skill with keeping the excitement up, even when there are no targets to be found! It really helped for 0.0 noobs like me to have someone echoing the FC's instructions in chat (I don't know if it interfered with fleet command). We're just learning a bunch of new skills, and it's hard sometimes to keep track of everything when you're stuffing a bunch of new stuff in your head! It was great to have confirmation - as in, "yes . . . I really AM 'sposed to go through that gate." Lots of work though for Cath and Rich, thank you. Very much looking forward to wolfpacks and additional frigate roams. BASIC-20091003 INTRO TO FC-20091114 WOLFPACKS-20091215 ADVANCED-20100326 ADVANCED HSSR-20100507 | ||
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| Xanthylium Dye |
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Posts: 4 | First Thanks to all that participated, especially the scouts without whom we would have no targets. I learned quite a bit, but realized there is alot more to learn. Despite the vent issues I had a great time and will definitely be coming back for both wolfpacks and as an alumnus. I think I will just leave a jump clone in stacmon. Some things I noticed/comments: - Up until now I have mostly been a PvE'er and I was really surprised by how much concentration/attention was required in order to not screw up during the roam. It was a totally different experience from the PvE/half AFK side of the game. I think that this difference could be the cause of some of the mistakes by us noobs especially when waiting for targets to grow a pair. I suggest maybe point this difference out right before the roam. Explaining that your undivided attention is required during the roam to be effective because you may have to spring into action very quickly. - It is very easy to miss a command. Caldak, thanks for being stern when people screwed up but not being a asshole about it. - Seemed like fleet warps were coming just a bit too fast after jumps and people were getting left behind. I don't know how long it normally takes to jump 80 people through a gate but maybe just a bit more time for most of the fleet to get into system. - After I lost my first and only ship and got podded. I Jumped in another one in Stacmon but I was unsure how to proceed. I was 8 or so (low sec/0.0) jumps and 12 Highsec jumps from out from the fleet in Orvolle, I took the high sec route not liking my chances in low/null sec alone. I got lucky and the fleet docked for a break in Orvolle so I could catch up but if they had been deep in null sec I don't know what I would have done other than run the gauntlet or just wait for the fleet to get closer. I understand that the fleet cannot go back to high sec everything a player gets podded or loses a ship. Instructions before the roam on exactly what to do if you do end up podded and X jumps away from the fleet could be good. I think that's it. Thanks again to every one. Xanthylium Dye BASIC-20091121 / WOLFPACKS-20091208 | ||
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| Wildstar |
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Posts: 11 | I didn't get to go on the roam portion, but my alliance space provides plenty of opportunity for practical application of the concepts provided in the lecture section. On the lecture, that was fantastic and informative. Lots of information, and excellent answers to the myriad of questions. I learned a ton of things both large and small about how to be more effective in PVP, not just in a big fleet, but in a small gang and even solo. Some of the things I learned today had my mind working for how I might be able to put together my own fleets and more confidence to FC. Couple that with the Free FC seminar recently offered and I might be a dangerous pilot in space yet! The Fleet Manager thing is fantastic. I don't know that if I tried to do it all on paper and put it together it would be as complete or accurate. Strongly consider distributing that to the rest of Eve in someway. I've waited a long time to take this class, and it was well worth it all the way around. I appreciated the structure and presentation of the concepts greatly. My alliance has been great about answering questions, but sometimes a more structured environment bring it all together in a better way. If possible, I'm even more eager to take the other offerings by Agony to the public. The only criticism I might make was that the beginning part of the velocity section was a big rushed and people got a little confused. Once we got to spiraling, it felt like people caught up and the confusion dissipated. FC BASIC-20091114 | BASIC-20091121 | WOLFPACKS-20100119 | ||
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| Ecatherina W |
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  Posts: 1151 | Hey guys & dolls Thanks, Caldak, always nice to know I stepped up and not on toes  It has been a while since I have last atttended a Basic class, due to the fact that my own alliance tends to have a lot of stuff going on in the weekends, so I was glad to listen in to the teachings as well as participate in the roams. And I was pleasantly surprised - Agony Basic classes have developed into something better from an already great concept. Kudos to all the many people who have had a hand in the continued development of Rells' crazy dreams. SkrewedUp, TeaDaze and Azual, you all did great - Azual was a bit eager beaver in his speech pattern, but either he was too eager or just happen to talk like a machinegun on full auto  Either way, it can be helped with a little practice.Caldak - kudos to you for having developed HUGELY since your own first basic class I still remember a guy who was warping wrong, jumping needlessly into gatecamps and so on - a guy so eager to fly in real PVP that he was making all the mistakes in the book, but all that heart has certainly paid off. FCing is where you belong. Now you just need to learn a bit about noobs which your predecessors, and I am of course especially thinking about my dearly beloved Rasql, knew. They are noobs! They need to hear things very, very clearly, and they need to hear it more than once. Also, don't get angry with the paying customers - they are after all the ones who make or break your corps whole concept.I think the skirmish group concept is great - not just one skirmisher or two, but small groups working together. It just seemed that the skirmish groups at times lost people/ships and did not get them replaced. It may be an idea to ask some of the more experienced alumni if they have skirmishing experience to step up and join the skirmishing teams. Alumni are a resource - be aware of it and use it. I know just how much communication an FC has to process during a fleet. One thing I missed a lot in the fleet last night was a clearly assigned XO. The XO role (executive officer, handles all the stufff in fleet so the FC does not have to) is one of the best concepts Agony has ever developed. One I have been trying to export to other alliances, AAA not excluded XO tends to handle secondary targetcalling, e-war group assignment, fleet discipline (he is the one saying "CLEAR COMS" or just "STFU in fleet!"), reinviting, assigning wing commanders, checking for squad commanders, rotating probe duty, rotating rear guard duty and so on. XO also is the one who copies fleet orders to fleet, in case of vent issues.That brings me to another concept of Agony fleets which seemed a bit underutilized yesterday. I remember a lot of great, patient and even in some cases polite rear guards who always managed to get the fleet through the gates before fleet warps. I know you assigned a rear guard, but I do not recall hearing the call "Rear guard: All in" and I missed it.I hope you can use my "ah, but in the ooooooold days...." memories to make fleet work smoother, because I think it is sad that pilots got confused, was systems behind and did not get to participate in the kills. Hugs and kisses Kath BASIC-0302071900 | WOLFPACKS-2402071800 | FLYBYS-2707072000 | COVOPS-201020072100 | ADVANCED-050320081900 | CAPSUPPORT-070620081600 | PVP-BOMBERS-072620081600 | DRUNKEN-PVP-1207081600 | FLEET COMMAND - 1512080200 ***** Lucifer's Handmaiden ***** Dromedary Goat Albatross and Fish - because we DGAF! BBQ Forum About Everything Eve | ||
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| Corywyn |
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[AGONY] Core Posts: 138 | Too bad I was tired as hell yesterday and had to leave before I could see what you did with the drake (I love seeing drakes explode ... ). My comments, on the 2nd time with you: I decided to stick around for the full course, not just the roam after the class but also the theory section to see if I missed something the last time or I could pick up something more. And it was worth it - I don't know if you usually don't mention the whole sessiontimer/gatecloak thing, but imo it is an interesting thing for people who are new to PvP (as sessiontimer usually is only an issue for PvE'rs when they want to hop into the Salvacane after blowing up everything in their CNR and then start cursing at 'Scotty' ).=>: Maybe make a chapter about the advantages and disadvantages of the session timer, agression rules and how that influences going through gates, etc - maybe not in absolute detail but at least in general. (I myself totally forgot about it during the last roam, when I couldn't use the gate after shooting at someone and then died ... and had absolutely no idea what was wrong back then )The part on tracking was really good (maybe better than the last time, might have something to do with being more relaxed throughout the whole course as it was my 2nd time), Azual seemes to like that topic really much, at least that's how it felt to me, hearing how much he had to communicate about it. Conclusion: It again was well worth the time, I had fun and learned a bit more. And in the end, that's what it is about (okay, and having fun, which I had) Thumbs up to the Agony members who made it possible, I'm looking forward to a Wolfpacks Course in the future (and ofc more Basic Roams) o7 | ||
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| Jebei Noyan |
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 [AGONY] Core Posts: 1051 | Ecatherina W wrote ... That brings me to another concept of Agony fleets which seemed a bit underutilized yesterday. I remember a lot of great, patient and even in some cases polite rear guards who always managed to get the fleet through the gates before fleet warps. I know you assigned a rear guard, but I do not recall hearing the call "Rear guard: All in" and I missed it.Since I was in the assigned rearguard group for a while, I guess my answer would be that the rearguard role I was playing was more in line with what we would run in our own fleets - we were usually a whole system behind the fleet, making sure nothing sneaked up on us or we didn't miss a target coming through, watching gates if the fleet was stopped, getting onto the other side of a gate if something was reported as coming through to us from the main group, dropping one of us a couple of systems back to check activity or into side systems, moving past the main fleet if more tackle was called for, etc. - more of a skirmishing rearguard. We had our own cozy chat window up, so there was quite a bit going on between the rearguard that never made it onto Vent. I'm pretty sure I didn't see the main fleet go through a gate more than a couple of times. I take your point about shepherding pilots & ensuring they were safely through, and that reflects one of your earlier comments about remembering that a lot of pilots were new to 0.0 - my bad, I didn't think of it, but at the same time while you may not have heard an "All in" I really wasn't seeing hordes of pilots wandering through systems well behind the fleet (although I may have missed it!). I would suggest that the lack of a shepherd probably reflects on Caldak's confidence in handling the fleet & his Agony crew's confidence in his handling of it. Having said that I'm sure your comment will be noted by the proper authorities and acted on if needed  There was already some internal discussion about the XO role before your comment came through, so we are trying to get better! BASIC - 2012080200 WOLFPACKS-200910242300 | ||
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| Ecatherina W |
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Posts: 1151 | (taken slightly out of context) Jebei Noyan wrote ... ... so we are trying to get better! Of course you are - you are Agony! BASIC-0302071900 | WOLFPACKS-2402071800 | FLYBYS-2707072000 | COVOPS-201020072100 | ADVANCED-050320081900 | CAPSUPPORT-070620081600 | PVP-BOMBERS-072620081600 | DRUNKEN-PVP-1207081600 | FLEET COMMAND - 1512080200 ***** Lucifer's Handmaiden ***** Dromedary Goat Albatross and Fish - because we DGAF! BBQ Forum About Everything Eve | ||
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| Esbear |
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 [AGONY] Core Posts: 580 | Zin Leya wrote ... Drake bait was fun, shame it actually didn't tank much. He actually got to tank quite a bit but the beast we made was buffered to the extreme so in the end it managed to survive easily. Dough the bait pilot setup his Drake and we went through the procedure of what would happen on the gate. It's interesting to see how a pve player gets to see the difference between a pvp and pve fit. The main difference in thinking was using shield rechargers in the low slots (pve fit) or DCU + power diagnostic systems and some rigs for even more buffer. Bait setup used : [Drake, bait] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Small Energy Neutralizer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior I x5 163k EHP according to EHP taking into consideration lvl 5 skills for tanking and battlecruiser V. This is quite a bit to chew through for any gang. <Imagine this is the coolest signature picture you have ever seen... really ever...> | ||
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| Caldak |
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[AGONY] Core Posts: 1017 | Keep the feed back rolling in.  Yes, its a hard call betwen been a little hard and a little soft. I've done a few class's as FC and wouldn't want to swap it for anything. Would be interesting in hearing people who have done a few roams with me ow they find the difference between the way the class's have gone. Is this one were I done a harder edge to keep attention going seen we were missing fights and fustration comes in, making the class dock and having bio's to pull everything in line, versus other class's. I did miss the suicide run at the end of the class, but with vent been up the WhoDazzy I didn't want to do it without getting a fighting chance at something. Returned with over 40 pilots at the end of 7hrs shows me there are some killing machines out there. Silly pirates hiding away See you boys at the next class, on the side here is our Tally. 31 Kills, not counting Pods. 1.8 Billion Isk give or take a mil...... Life's to short for Crap BASIC - 0208081800 WOLFPACKS-1110081600 BOMBERS-072620081600 Fleet Command - 1512080200 A&W-0271220081700 | ||
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| AntiA VonMelen |
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Posts: 3 | Joined up early for the Q&A Session with Teadaze, and it's comfortable to see that he is comfortable in discussing pretty much any topic, he seems read up on subjects and don't seem prone to haste desitions. Needless to say he's got my two votes. The class started out pretty well, the basics were covered and the fleet manager was introduced, that tool blew my mind and I would love to get my hands on it. The potential of that little tool is endless. Azual came along and started the tracking, sig radius, velocity part of the class and when he started out he talked way to fast and about an inch to close to the microphone. Even though I had read the material I had trouble following everything he said. He got better later on. The roam was what I looked forward to but before we were handed over to Caldak, caldak found an opportunity to get us an early kill, a mess up in the communications made the tempest stay in low sec and Caldak didn't sound very happy about it. So my thoughts then were, "Shit we are gonna have a pissed of FC from the start" And I believe I was right, but he held the fleet together and had control over his skrimishers and recon groups, Well done, to bad there were so few kills after the initial engagement. The ventrillo ping spike that alot of us experienced was unfortunate and the only thing i have to say there is that maybe caldak should read the fleet chat a tad bit more since it seemed he just keept going even thought alot of the class couldn't hear him. In the end it was a ton of fun and I will be back for more classes in the future. Last couple of thoughts though. * The concept on scirmishers is brilliant and i would love a class about it or at least a seminar. Also, giving a class about it will most likely in the long run bring alumni back to skirmish for the basic classes and that way give you more skirmishers to work with, since there seemed to be maybe a group to little in way of skirmishers. * Now when is the next wolfpack class going out? | ||
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| Hogun Rath |
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 Posts: 65 | Another great roam, thx for the Agony guys for their support. The fleet got split two times, this is how I saw them: First we were in FD-MLJ, Caldak said to align to X-M, warping fleet to X-M but actually he warped the fleet to X-B and we jumped in as instructed. It was a question if we are in the wrong system and 2 hops away from where Caldak wants the fleet or he just mixed the names. Second time we were in TXW-EI (if i remember right) and were warped to a gate (probably NG-C6Y) at 100km. I heard Caldak say that we just warps the fleet around while waiting for the recon reports but no fleet warp was issued. So fleet sits on the gate at 100km and I hear Caldak on vent to say Jump, jump, jump. Obviously he is on a gate and thinks that the fleet is with him (ppl who went for repair and warped to Caldak were with him actually). So ppl at the wrong gate started to wart to 3MOG and tried to catch up with the fleet. I think this is why there were only a handfulls on a gate when Caldak had to hold back from jumping and engaging cause majority of the fleet was still catching up. For the ones who jumped into 3MOG-Y when they should have hold on the gate. If I am not clear about what to do on a gate, I just hold. It's the safest thing to do, if you are racing into an encounter the FC will repeat the jump instruction many times to get ppl to the otherside asap. If the order is not repeated and you see a few ppl jump, a few hold you can always ask on vent about the orders on gate, this should get you a clear answer about what to do. All in all great roam, thx Caldak for leading the fleet, I also like how you talk the fleet through the encounters and tactics involved before we actually engage. BASIC-20091010 WOLFPACKS-20091215 FC BASIC-20091114 | ||
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| voetius |
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Posts: 10 | Many thanks to Caldak for FC'ing and to SkrewedUp, Azual and all the Agony guys for their hard work in setting the class up - especially the scouting guys for doing the boring but essential stuff. I found the class interesting and instructional. Using the directional scanner with the F11 solar system map was something I didn't know about amongst other things. I was one of the people that got left behind when the fleet warped after jumping through gate - must have been a little bit of lag involved in my client (?) although it ran very smoothly overall. Most of the times I had come through the gate just as the group warped off so a couple of seconds longer and I wouldn't have missed most or all of the fleet warps. I liked the bait Drake setup - noted. Well done to dough for volunteering while I hesitated ... Only suggestions I have: * you might want to add a point in the checklist to remind people to change their shipnames from the default name - probably doesn't make any difference in this class but it's a good habit to have when you are flying around in low / null sec / wormholes. * agree with the poster above that an instruction on what to do if you get podded and end up in Slays (couldn't get a clone in Stacmon), I just ran back thru null to the fleet but I almost got caught by a bomber in one system and a bubble in another - perhaps that is something the XO role could do if you have one in the next class. I look forward to being in the next class as an alumni. Cheers. BASIC-20091121 BASIC-20100306 WOLFPACKS-1203102200 ADVANCED-2603102400 ADVANCED HSSR -1807102100 | ||
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| Layzorz |
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Posts: 7 | First up - I was along as Alumnus - this isn't about me, it's about the students. It's a great privilege to be able to come back and re-attend for nothing, and fleet up with the leading lights of PVP, both of today and tomorrow - thank you guys. I *would* like to make a few points of hopefully constructive feedback, though. Another great course - many thanks once again to SkrewedUp, TeaDaze and Azual for top-notch teaching (especially amid technical problems and "other difficulties" (see below) in Azual's case - thanks mate!) I'm by no means a fleet warfare expert, but I found Caldak's FC-ing (while very firm and probably rather intimidating to a first-time fleet participant) to be clear, concise, creative and effective - many thanks to you and all the other Agony participants for an awesome roam, and I feel I should point out to all the first-time fleet participants how lucky we were to have you as FC, Caldak. I do wonder if perhaps just a touch more support for the folks who have never done this before and have paid to learn (a fair and reasonable sum of money, but a significant outlay for a new character) is in order? As to the students - the fact that you attended shows that you have the drive to be great PVP-ers. you had a lot of new information to take in, and then had to put it all to immediate use in the most stressful (and fun) of EVE situations. Congratulations on graduating PVP-BASIC, and I look forward to joining your fleets in the future. Right, now I'm afraid I'm going to be a little less positive, but hopefully still constructive - listen up alumni. I think we alumni need to look at why we're there. It's a privilege for us to re-attend without charge, and if we can help while topping up our learning, that's even better, but it's really not about us. As such, we're kind of helping set the example to the new PvP players. I'm not sure how many of the PVP-BASIC students would have used tactical comms before, but I do feel that we as alumni need to display great comms restraint, NEVER chat just to raise our profile and NEVER EVER heckle an instructor mid-lesson just to make the point that we've "been there, done that". I'm not going to name names here, but one Alumnus spent pretty much the entire lesson and roam muted in my Vent client due to constant and inappropriate chatter, which is a shame since I've no doubt that Alumnus had an awful lot to share given more selective use of comms. Given this APPALINGLY bad example, I feel the first-time students can be forgiven quite some lapses in comms protocol, and also excused for missing important details since the signal to noise ratio was not what it should have been - what should have been "OMG, a Vent message, I'd better listen up" was merely "hey, another Vent message". So, I think all of us Alumni need to go back to the PVP-BASIC page and (re-)read How to be a good Alumnus. I'm going to go do that right now, it's a learning experience for us as well, after all. Thanks again guys, and I look forward to sailing with you again. BASIC-20091010 | ||
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